Comments on: Unpacking the Informal Learning definition http://gminks.edublogs.org/2009/02/20/unpacking-the-informal-learning-definition/ Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:45:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Ernie Kahane http://gminks.edublogs.org/2009/02/20/unpacking-the-informal-learning-definition/comment-page-1/#comment-284 Ernie Kahane Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:57:26 +0000 http://gminks.edublogs.org/?p=160#comment-284 Gina, what about the learning that clues us into the rules of the game of our organization - who gets ahead, what the game is? How do we characterize the learning that we gain that makes us feel part of the team and engaged. None of this learning seems to be driven by objectives, you soak in the culture and some people never figure it out. I consider this engagement level of learning a fundamental part of informal learning and smart management should want to influence it. However, this assumes informal learning can be fundamentally different in nature than formal. Formal is driven by top-down objectives. Informal often happens in the moment and happens by bottoms-up and I think "non-conscious" objectives. Just like you don't have a conscious objective to eat lunch every day or drive home. If this is true, there's a bunch of cultural learning that goes on under the radar that ranges from Dilbertian to From Good to Great. This level allows you to start talking about the nature of learning organizations and smart and dumb organizations Gina, what about the learning that clues us into the rules of the game of our organization – who gets ahead, what the game is? How do we characterize the learning that we gain that makes us feel part of the team and engaged. None of this learning seems to be driven by objectives, you soak in the culture and some people never figure it out. I consider this engagement level of learning a fundamental part of informal learning and smart management should want to influence it. However, this assumes informal learning can be fundamentally different in nature than formal. Formal is driven by top-down objectives. Informal often happens in the moment and happens by bottoms-up and I think “non-conscious” objectives. Just like you don’t have a conscious objective to eat lunch every day or drive home. If this is true, there’s a bunch of cultural learning that goes on under the radar that ranges from Dilbertian to From Good to Great. This level allows you to start talking about the nature of learning organizations and smart and dumb organizations

]]> By: Lila Kirschbaum http://gminks.edublogs.org/2009/02/20/unpacking-the-informal-learning-definition/comment-page-1/#comment-283 Lila Kirschbaum Fri, 20 Feb 2009 23:32:06 +0000 http://gminks.edublogs.org/?p=160#comment-283 Lots of good comments and thoughts. I'd like to add to Ernie's comments. My suggestion is that we begin by looking at the needed end result. When they have completed their learning what will the learner: · Need / want to do · Need / want to know how to do Beginning with a definition of what the end result needs to be allows the learner to focus on what they want/ need to achieve when they have completed their learning. As they learn they may add to, or change, what they want or need to learn. Then the end result may change. This is fine, as long as they know what they want/ need to learn. From my perspective it is the end result of the learning that is important and what it is called is secondary. Lots of good comments and thoughts. I’d like to add to Ernie’s comments. My suggestion is that we begin by looking at the needed end result.

When they have completed their learning what will the learner:

· Need / want to do
· Need / want to know how to do

Beginning with a definition of what the end result needs to be allows the learner to focus on what they want/ need to achieve when they have completed their learning.

As they learn they may add to, or change, what they want or need to learn. Then the end result may change. This is fine, as long as they know what they want/ need to learn. From my perspective it is the end result of the learning that is important and what it is called is secondary.

]]> By: gminks http://gminks.edublogs.org/2009/02/20/unpacking-the-informal-learning-definition/comment-page-1/#comment-282 gminks Fri, 20 Feb 2009 21:43:32 +0000 http://gminks.edublogs.org/?p=160#comment-282 @Donald Clark, Thanks! More definitions, incidental learning, and non-formal learning. Interesting. @Donald Clark, Thanks! More definitions, incidental learning, and non-formal learning. Interesting.

]]> By: gminks http://gminks.edublogs.org/2009/02/20/unpacking-the-informal-learning-definition/comment-page-1/#comment-281 gminks Fri, 20 Feb 2009 21:43:01 +0000 http://gminks.edublogs.org/?p=160#comment-281 @Ernie Kahane, but isn't wanting to get unstuck a conscious objective? :) @Ernie Kahane, but isn’t wanting to get unstuck a conscious objective? :)

]]> By: Donald Clark http://gminks.edublogs.org/2009/02/20/unpacking-the-informal-learning-definition/comment-page-1/#comment-280 Donald Clark Fri, 20 Feb 2009 21:19:22 +0000 http://gminks.edublogs.org/?p=160#comment-280 As far as being in the right place at that right time and you learn something that you did not intend to learn is normally called "incidental learning." Also, I think there needs to be one more type of learning - nonformal. This is learning that is guided by someone other than a learning professional (formal learning) or the learners themselves (informal learning). For example, the metrics used to measure informal learning includes OJT. However, the vast majority of OJT is not defined by the learners, but rather by the manager or an expert or exemplar coworker. Thus, nonformal learning is learning that is defined by a person other than a learning professional (trainer, instructor, teacher, etc.) or the learners themselves. As far as being in the right place at that right time and you learn something that you did not intend to learn is normally called “incidental learning.”

Also, I think there needs to be one more type of learning – nonformal. This is learning that is guided by someone other than a learning professional (formal learning) or the learners themselves (informal learning).

For example, the metrics used to measure informal learning includes OJT. However, the vast majority of OJT is not defined by the learners, but rather by the manager or an expert or exemplar coworker. Thus, nonformal learning is learning that is defined by a person other than a learning professional (trainer, instructor, teacher, etc.) or the learners themselves.

]]> By: Ernie Kahane http://gminks.edublogs.org/2009/02/20/unpacking-the-informal-learning-definition/comment-page-1/#comment-277 Ernie Kahane Fri, 20 Feb 2009 19:02:06 +0000 http://gminks.edublogs.org/?p=160#comment-277 I think it’s useful to think of words like informal learning and formal learning as “tools” for thought. Do they help clarify issues? Do they help you do real work? 1) If you are selling training and you’ve discovered you’re now in the learning business, knowing that 80% of learning is informal presents a great market opportunity, if you’ve been focused only on the formal 20%. So defining formal and informal as products can make good business sense. 2) However, defining the difference as “my” objectives vs designer’s objectives isn’t persuasive. In this definition, the same classroom course might be formal to one person and informal to another based on whether “learners feel that they are able to master their intended objectives (whether or not the course designers believe that the learners have or have not demonstrated mastery). “ (Help, this definition is confusing) 3) Most learning happens when you get stuck and want to get unstuck. It’s not so grand as having conscious objectives, sometimes you just want to find out where to get on the subway. And because learning is multi-layered, often you find out (if you are in intentional mode) that that you learned something completely different than what you intended to learn. It’s the unintended or collateral learning people usually talk about when they are in formal classes e.g. I got a chance to meet Joe and talk. I think it’s useful to think of words like informal learning and formal learning as “tools” for thought. Do they help clarify issues? Do they help you do real work?

1) If you are selling training and you’ve discovered you’re now in the learning business, knowing that 80% of learning is informal presents a great market opportunity, if you’ve been focused only on the formal 20%. So defining formal and informal as products can make good business sense.
2) However, defining the difference as “my” objectives vs designer’s objectives isn’t persuasive. In this definition, the same classroom course might be formal to one person and informal to another based on whether “learners feel that they are able to master their intended objectives (whether or not the course designers believe that the learners have or have not demonstrated mastery). “ (Help, this definition is confusing)
3) Most learning happens when you get stuck and want to get unstuck. It’s not so grand as having conscious objectives, sometimes you just want to find out where to get on the subway. And because learning is multi-layered, often you find out (if you are in intentional mode) that that you learned something completely different than what you intended to learn. It’s the unintended or collateral learning people usually talk about when they are in formal classes e.g. I got a chance to meet Joe and talk.

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